your evening sage advice
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Here’s how it reads when pushed through the Agenda Machine:
“A man and his wife were recovvering after a handgun went off in a firearms safety class. The victim was shot in the hand by a .45-caliber assault handgun. The gun also shot his wife in the leg as she was sitting beside him. The assault occurred during a firearms safety class at a non-govenment location. The instructor told police he’d left the room and then heard a shot. The victim says the shooting was not the guns fault.”
Comment by Caged Insanity — April 24, 2012 @ 3:20 pm
You left out Rule One- all guns are always loaded.
Comment by staghounds — April 24, 2012 @ 3:30 pm
I was almost shot in the leg by a numbtard at the range once. Fortunately my interpretation of “safe shooting practices” includes watching the numbtard next to you as he does a Three Stooges routine trying to holster a gun.
Yes, there are some people who shouldn’t have guns. Such people probably also shouldn’t have driver’s licenses.
I will almost *guarantee* you he touched the trigger. From the sound of the report, he was futzing with an “unloaded” gun, testing the trigger. Probably a 1911, trying to partially retract the slide with one hand (pushing on the barrel), with an amateur grip.
Whether he did or not, it was still negligence and not an accident. Even if it was mechanical failure, he still violated the *other* three rules of gun safety.
People drive me nuts sometimes.
Comment by Merovign — April 24, 2012 @ 3:31 pm
The real problem is so many get a NRA safety class and think they are experts who know it all.
I taught CHL for 10 years and I NEVER pointed a gun at me or anyone (but twice had students swing their guns past me!)
I prefer non-shooting guns in class and on the range I demo with the gun pointed DOWNRANGE.
Oh, and I’ve been to several top shooting schools, TPW hunter ed (taught that to for years), NRA instrucgtor, IPSC class ‘A’, IDPA expert in all categories, and been shooting for 40+ years. And I still don’t know it all!!!
Comment by Paul — April 24, 2012 @ 4:30 pm
I have a little Bursa .380 auto in the arsenal. Went to clear it, knowing it had one round, jacked it overhand, finger OFF trigger, it malfunctioned and fired. Safety on, it didn’t eject, but fired on return.
Folks, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, point barrel to a clear area. I think I expounded on this when we visited Doug……
I am Safe, never outrageous, but malfunctions happen above and beyond just being stupid.
*the finger was reattached… A lot of monies later*
Comment by Wollf — April 24, 2012 @ 7:20 pm
Sorta makes you want to reconsider the “everybody should have a gun” rule.
If only there were some easy test, like a blood test, or a brain scan.
Comment by ZZMike — April 24, 2012 @ 9:09 pm
I have a Llama .380 that did the exact same thing. For a pricey gun the manual safety is little more than decoration on a Llima. Of course the grip safety was moot during this maneuver.
Comment by Spin — April 24, 2012 @ 9:27 pm
“Keep yer booger-hook offa the bang switch”
Comment by mojo — April 24, 2012 @ 10:42 pm
Staghounds (2)
I was trying to say precisely the opposite.
You do not “assume” anything. You frikkin’ LOOK!
Then you know 100% for sure.
If you don’t know 100% for sure, the second thing you do is frikkin’ LOOK!
(The first thing you do is to safely take control of the gun, pointed in a safe direction with your finger off the trigger.)
That saying just says to handle a gun carefully (well, duhh), but it doesn’t say how. Yeah, we old hands know how, but just saying to treat it as loaded doesn’t help a newbie one little bit. It scares ‘em, it’s misleading, and it’s routinely violated during normal gun handling.
Here’s a quick list of things you do not do with a loaded weapon, so you’re not treating it as “loaded,” you’re handling it safely:
• Clean it
• Repair it
• Store it
• Transport it
• Show it
• Inspect it
• Go downrange or permit anyone else to be downrange
• Hand it off to somebody or take it from somebody (instructors excepted, on occasion)
• Take it to or away from the firing line
The only times a weapon should be loaded are when
The range is hot, and it’s safe to shoot
• It’s in it’s ready-to-kill place (holster, drawer, etc.)
Then you check to make sure it is loaded.
When you take control of a firearm, check to make sure it’s loaded/unloaded as it should be. Have someone else double-check it, or double-check it, yourself.
If a firearm has been out of your control, re-check it.
Do not frikkin’ assuuuuume anything.
(What? Yeah, okay.)
Ten-minute break.
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 25, 2012 @ 6:54 am
Paul (4)
You’re right. Expertise and experience, combined with a dash of humility* go a long way to safe gun handling.
* Humility comes from experience.
I, too, use a dummy gun in class when I’m moving it around and talking or might “paint” myself with it, but I don’t point it at others. Real guns are used in the basic handling and clearing demos. (I also inspect the students’ guns at that time and ask ‘em where they came from. “Inhereted” guns are usually disallowed. If they haven’t been gunsmithed, you don’t know their condition, and they’re probably not reliable enough for personal defense.)
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 25, 2012 @ 7:13 am
Wollf (5) & Spin (7)
That’s why there are three rules.
If one of those rules is not in play, due to mechanical malfunction, say; or maybe it’s not really as safe a direction as you thought, then you still have the redundancy of the other two rules. In other words, you’re not left with a single-point-failure situation, so nobody gets hurt by a shot bullet.
(Of course, there are lots of other ways to get hurt.)
ZZMike (6)
I must’a missed that one.
Never heard anybody say that, certainly not me. Heck, even those who are normally mature enough and mentally and emotionally stable enough to be armed should not be armed on occasion: booze, drugs, rage, etc.
Accidents are a training/skill/experience/attitude problem. Sh*t’s dangerous, dude.
Ask your instructor if they were always as safety-conscious as they expect you to be, then remember the old saying: “Ain’t nobody as virtuous as a reformed whore.”
(What? Oh, yeah, me ‘specially. I gain knowledge mainly from the experience of having screwed up and lived to tell others “Just … just don’t do this.”)
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 25, 2012 @ 7:19 am
Cain`t help recalling that Utube vid of the black *racist* cop firing his piece in a classroom full of students. NO better training aid for gun safety; none——-
Comment by Colonel Jerry USMC — April 25, 2012 @ 8:35 am
^ ColJ
Heeeere ya go!
Yeah, I use that DEA-guy clip right after I introduce myself to students.
After the handling safety lesson, I review in detail which rules this guy violated.
Then I show about twenty minutes of other YouTube clips, with commentary.
Dang fools out there make my job easy.
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 25, 2012 @ 2:41 pm
DougM (11)
As all 3 rules were followed what, in your opinion, would you have done differently?
Comment by Spin — April 25, 2012 @ 4:24 pm
I will, without malice my Friend, agree with Spin on this. Sometimes, things out of our control ‘happen’
Weapon was pointed down and away.
Finger was away from trigger along the barrel.
I knew it was loaded.
It took me a year to handle the pistol again, Knowing it was unloaded, a triple checking after that.
It does the same thing, about every other time. Jack the slide and the hammer trips.
I have handled a disparate number of weapons throughout my young life, Career, and life. Never a problem, and always Safety First.
Thing I have learned…. And Spin, now pay attention…heh… I will NEVER overhand jack a slide again. Leaves your pinkie by the muzzle for malfunctions to become costly, even if the three rules are followed!
I don’t think I’ll sue…..
I am not litigious…. Hell, I hate most attorneys,
Comment by Wollf — April 25, 2012 @ 5:39 pm
Spin (14) & Wollf (15)
What would I have done?
Bled and undoubtedly cursed … loudly.
As I said, “Of course, there are lots of other ways to get hurt.”
Sh*t happens. Had a 1911 I built in gunsmithing class go full-auto (stoning-angle flaw on the sear/hammer notch) after a flawless 500 rnds. Luckily, there were only four rounds left in the mag at the time.
Good point on jackin’ the slide. Slam-fire is not unheard-of (often due to either 1- firing-pin inertia overcoming a weak spring or 2- a projecting primer). Personally, I use the overhand only to lock the slide, not to release it. I teach folks to release it by pulling from the rear and letting go (also keeps gun pointed toward target). I bump check from below (thumb & forefinger from below bbl pull slide back ~1/8″ to verify chamber is loaded).
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 25, 2012 @ 7:15 pm
Wow, a 1911 with full auto capability. I’d need a cases of mags, a ginormous amount of ammo and… saltpeter or Helen Thomas targets.
Comment by Spin — April 25, 2012 @ 7:30 pm
Yannow, Doug, that is zackly why I loves you. That little surprise took the pinky Off. Never cussed though, too much to do and a new young Wife to reassure. Mil grade coagulant, wrapped it up, retrieved the digit by the time she got to the garage….. Said,”Honey, we ought to go to the Medic”
You are right, and I will never overhand again. Got to make it a habit.
By the by, it was an expensive malfunction…120k total, about 25k out of pocket. Had I been informed of the cost a forehand, nope.
Comment by Wollf — April 25, 2012 @ 7:55 pm
Oh, and sorry… Spin, I preordered the double barrel 2011 Auto. Dumb gun perchance, but I gotta have it!
Comment by Wollf — April 25, 2012 @ 7:58 pm
Wollf, Alternating BENGAY ® and Icy Hot® Products may become a necessity.
Comment by Spin — April 25, 2012 @ 8:21 pm
WAIT! You know me? :)
Comment by Wollf — April 25, 2012 @ 8:24 pm
Spin (17)
A full-auto 1911 is a Tommy gun without a shoulder stock or forend grip.
It will eventually come up and over and shoot you in the face.
By the way, if you ever have a semi-automatic’s firing mechanism worked on, test-fire it with only two rounds in the magazine.
[waits for folks to consider why]
Yeah, you don’t want that puppy full of ammo, if it happens to go full-auto.
Comment by DougM (jackassophobe) — April 26, 2012 @ 8:29 am
Woolf: Time to retire that weapon to the slag heap…..
DougM: You probably have this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTCO9GD3Q0s
“I just ….. shot myself”
Weapons expert demonstrates quick-draw technique.
PS: True story, from court sheriff (Orange Coutry, CA):
Really Bad Guy was on trial for more than we want to know about. Among the things they relieved him of was a machine gun – maybe AK-47 or such. The sheriffs took it to the range to test fire. It went full-auto, up & over, killed the policeman. Suspect it was tinkered to do just that.
Comment by ZZMike — April 27, 2012 @ 8:47 am