Prog PoliSci 201: Shark-Jumping (week six: Nobel Prizes)

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  1. Still waiting for Cher or Marisa Tomei to win.

    Comment by SteveHGraham — December 10, 2012 @ 10:05 am

  2. ^ *heh*
    Personally, I think Hugo Chavez got screwed in the voting.

    Comment by DougM (Well, thaaat sucked!) — December 10, 2012 @ 10:23 am

  3. If by “European Union,” you meant “America by means of NATO, the Marshall Plan, US forces, and American taxpayers” then yeah. It was Truman, Eisenhower, and Marshall (and hundreds of thousands of Americans) who pulled those squabbling, murderous brats out of the rubble, dusted ‘em off, made ‘em blow their noses, told ‘em to kiss and make up, the grabbed ‘em all by the ears and marched ‘em to their rooms until they could play together nicely.

    George C. Marshall was, in fact, acknowledged by a Nobel Peace Prize. While the exact contribution of the plan to post-war European prosperity remains mired in controversy, it undoubtedly did help. Like the formation of the UN, it was an example of American generosity and broad-mindedness, which has since gone largely extinct – and one could also point out certain partisan differences in attitude even back then. The fact that the money was earmarked for purchases from the United States and not internal investment did not hurt the American economy any, either.

    As to NATO, it wouldn’t do to honour a military alliance with a Peace Prize, and its effect on European political stability was equivocal, anyway. It cemented the Cold War, which wasn’t a foregone conclusion in the 1950s, originally excluded West Germany, then the French left for thirty years.

    Whatever you want to say about today’s EU, (and it’s an easy target for a kickabout) the treaty between France and Germany, so soon and with so much bloody barely dry, took a hell of a lot of political courage. If the prize isn’t meant to reward important moments when homo sapiens chooses cooperation over conflict, then I don’t know what the point is.

    Comment by Yarbouti — December 10, 2012 @ 10:59 am

  4. I really don’t give shit #1. The Nobel “Peace Prize” has become a bad joke. Kinda like Des Tutu.

    Comment by mojo — December 10, 2012 @ 11:06 am

  5. After obama won it, it has no worth.

    Comment by Alan outback bacon czar — December 10, 2012 @ 11:27 am

  6. If you go back to 1945, about the only nation-state economy that had not been destroyed literally and/or financially was the United States. It made sense to me then and still does, that rebuilding the battle fields, formerly known as Europe, HAD to come from the USA. (…much less notice was also the rebuilding of Japan under General Macarthur in concert w former God, Hirohito et al….)

    I have not paid great attention to how the proposed “coal agreement” in Europe blossomed into the “EU”. But my read on history informs me that humans still prefer to be identified with the nation (…and/or…) culture that goes back thousands of years (…tho not perfectly…). I don`t think I will live long enough to hear an Italian, Frenchman, German, etc. respond to questions about nationality by responding, “I am an EUian.”

    Regarding the Nobel Peace Prize, it is common knowledge that its members have drifted far afield from its founder`s intentions. Politics is the virus that infected it. Further, the award to the EU is interesting, since almost daily perusal of European press (…by fishwrapper/TV/internet…) predicts and promotes the demise of that body, whether true or false.

    Finally—–the proof in the pudding is: A Nobel Peace Prize to a community organizer from Illinois who had yet to do a single thing as a brand new elected president of the United States!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Comment by Colonel Jerry USMC — December 10, 2012 @ 11:43 am

  7. Who gets the Nobel pissed off prize?

    Comment by geezerette — December 10, 2012 @ 11:55 am

  8. Yarbouti (3)
    Your ability to twist your mind into that disingenuous pretzel which is Prog theology is truly amazing. Toss a few actual truths into a line of propaganda, then defend the truths — trite and tawdry but useful when dealing with a certain kind of mind. If you don’t really believe the crap you spout, you insult us by treating us as idiots.

    “American generosity and broad-mindedness, which has since gone largely extinct”
    That was a joke, right?

    “The fact that the money was earmarked for purchases from the United States and not internal investment did not hurt the American economy any, either.”
    Well, except for the fact that all that money and the goods it bought went overseas, out of the US, some of which went to rebuilding industries which later competed with US industries.

    “it wouldn’t do to honour a military alliance with a Peace Prize”
    Why not, if it keeps the peace, for cripessake?!
    You wouldn’t like police called “peace officers,” either, probably.
    A defensive military alliance like NATO (or the EU’s wet-dream equivalent) is designed to prevent war by making aggression too dangerous. Peace is not the natural state of affairs for a significant portion of those who have acquired military and political power. Peace is the interval between inevitable conflicts started by those aggressors.

    “cemented the Cold War, which wasn’t a foregone conclusion in the 1950s”
    What are you smokin’, dude? If by “cemented,” you mean “didn’t roll over and surrender to tyranny,” then yeah. The Cold War was inevitable; and it was obvious even in 1945, given Soviet aggressiveness in Eastern Europe. It was the only alternative to WWII Part Deux, the USSR’s conquest of Western Europe. You’re partially correct, though: it wasn’t obvious to Soviet apologists and dupes who believed the “Uncle Joe” lie.

    “originally excluded West Germany”
    Gee, I wonder why that was?
    West Germany was put in the corner without their supper thinking about what they’d done to deserve their spanking. Also, the Allies had to ferret out and hang the mass-murdering Nazi aggressors and destroy their Prog-like totalitarian infrastructure.
    East Germany, on the other hand, was integrated into the Soviet conquest machine.

    “the French left for thirty years”
    The French left the military council. They remained within the political council and whined about every friggin’ thing NATO did that might inconvenience the Soviets, whom they cuddled up with whenever it suited their objectives in countering US power and influence in Europe (bein’ France’s self-seen area of leadership).

    “the treaty between France and Germany, so soon and with so much bloody barely dry, took a hell of a lot of political courage”
    Do you really think that, or the EU itself, would even exist without the NATO umbrella and the adult supervision America provided?

    “If the prize isn’t meant to reward important moments when Homo sapiens chooses cooperation over conflict, then I don’t know what the point is.”
    Tell that to the Nobel Peace Prize Committee who seem to use the prize exclusively to reward political leftism. While you’re at it, ask ‘em why they chose Obama.

    Comment by DougM (Well, thaaat sucked!) — December 10, 2012 @ 12:02 pm

  9. I wrote this back in 2007 or so, if nothing else it show the flaw in the “peace thru weakness” philosophy that the left embraces and the Noble committee rewards.

    I was thinking about some recent history and I thought it was ironic that former President Carter didn’t get the Noble Peace Prize in the 70s as a snub to US power, and won it 30 years later for the same reason. I also find it sad that he didn’t even notice. I was thinking about the former president as it now seems we are about to engage in the war that Iran declared against us 30 years ago. How much of what we face today could have been prevented if we had a strong President at that time. When Ayatollah Khomeini ran the Islamic revolution from France, As the Russians moved into Afghanistan. As Islamic radicals assassinated Egypt’s President Mohamed Anwar al-Sadat. Many of those assassins became the foundation of Al-Qaida as we know it today. This is largely the time when radical Islam became the threat we face today. When Regan pulled out of Beirut. When Clinton forced Israel to reward the PLO with virtual statehood. When North Korea was given a “we trust you” deal by Carter. When Saddam was bribing his way into massive palaces while his people were suffering under sanctions. All of these added to the strength of the enemy we face today. Too late to change any of this so we must learn from it.. Those who oppose peace will use the trust of those who seek peace to prepare, then turn on those who thought they had gained peace. A lesson we should have learned from WWII?

    One might also note that Iran was, as many were saying to argue against war, 5 years away from having a bomb (a little over 5 years ago).

    Comment by Gwillie — December 10, 2012 @ 12:47 pm

  10. “There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.”
    – Daniel Webster

    “The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire.”
    – Robert A. Heinlein

    Comment by mojo — December 10, 2012 @ 12:52 pm

  11. If all of you think you’re going to teach people like Yarbouti anything your banging your heads against a brick wall and all you’ll get is a bloody forehead. They don’t give a big rats ass what YOU think because—-They know better than you and “They Can’t hear you!!!”

    Comment by geezerette — December 10, 2012 @ 1:07 pm

  12. ^ The goal is not to teach the Yarboutis but to remind ourselves.

    Comment by DougM (Well, thaaat sucked!) — December 10, 2012 @ 1:30 pm

  13. With the what’s happening to this country I think it’s very much on everyone’s mind and their in sorry hearts.
    But yes DougM it needs to be said.

    Comment by Geezerette — December 10, 2012 @ 2:37 pm

  14. Colonel: you are correct when you write that few people identify themselves as Europeans rather than citizens of their state, and also about the thriving of Eurosceptic media. I do know a number of people who use the term a great deal in discussion of values, and I suspect it is no accident that nascent European separatist movements (Scotland, Catalonia) are strongly pro-EU as part of their platforms. They want the rearrangements to remain in the family, so to speak. The backdrop of the European identity may or may not ever result in a true federation (so far, most people do not wish it) but it is important. I think the prize aimed to praise that stabilising effect, rather than the EU’s merits as a functional bureaucracy.

    Also, I agree that awarding President Obama the prize was an unqualified blunder. Of course, giving it to Kissinger was a travesty. The committee is not infallible, and the recipients are never saints. I don’t think this makes the prize worthless, though. It’s probably helpful to recognise a “banality of good” obverse to Hannah Arendt’s “banality of evil”.

    Doug: if we are going to exchange complaints about intelligence being insulted, that fantasy of oh-so-adult Americans treating men like Adenauer, Erhard, Churchill, Macmillan and de Gaulle like spoiled children is wearing rather thin. The folksy, broad-slashes approach to history has its charm but said charm has a very finite limit.

    Still, it’s precisely your argument about how natural it would have seemed to leave Germany and Italy out in the cold that makes the early thinking on their inclusion into European political structures so remarkable.

    The idea that the Red Army would have rolled across the central plain and taken Western Europe had it not been for the formation of NATO is one of those common knowledge assertions that wobble a bit under rigorous scrutiny. No known plans for such an invasion predate the existence of the alliance. The Soviet buffer-state doctrine was defensive, not offensive in nature, an assessment increasingly bolstered by the contents of the Eastern archives. Sweden and Finland, which never joined, were able to develop free market economies in close proximity to the USSR. Yugoslavia remained successfully non-aligned. I’m not going to argue that NATO is a force for evil, but it was a bellicose choice. It is easy in hindsight to disregard the opportunity cost of missing a chance for better post-war diplomacy with the Soviet Union which would have deserved the prize.

    And that’s before we get to Kosovo, Afghanistan and Libya.

    The part of Nobel’s will referring to the Peace Prize reads: “…and one part to the person who shall have done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses.” Surely, you can see my point.

    Comment by Yarbouti — December 10, 2012 @ 2:41 pm

  15. Geezerette, 11: To be fair, the reverse is also true, isn’t it?

    Comment by Yarbouti — December 10, 2012 @ 2:46 pm

  16. ^ To Yarbootie:

    “The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who in the name of charity and goodwill shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother’s keeper and a finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.”

    Comment by Hog Whitman — December 10, 2012 @ 3:02 pm

  17. Yarbouti– I think that’s what I said. So we all have bloody foreheads? America is not a European country it is America. There is no other country in the world like it. It is what it is because it did NOT and does NOT want to be a European country or like one. I think the Nobel Peace Prize should be awarded to any and all persons who have served and is serving in any form of armed forces to protect the freedoms of humanity and yes those who pull the squabbling ,murderous brats out of the rubble, dust them off , make them blow their noses and tell them to kiss and make up. Take a look at what you Euro’s have and ask yourselves how that happened and who is responsible. America is still digging their way out of the messes all of you started. You’ve bitten the had that’s been feeding you. Just think about what this country could have been had it not given a rats ass about the rest of the world and took care of it’s self and the hell with all of you who “hate” us now. Help me Porch Minkeys as you can tell I don’t have your talent in expressing myself but I’m sure you know what I’m trying to say.

    Comment by geezerette — December 10, 2012 @ 3:16 pm

  18. geezerette (17): You have plenty of talent in expressing yourself, and also the thoughts of others.

    Well, at least this one other.

    Comment by Hog Whitman — December 10, 2012 @ 3:48 pm

  19. Thanks Hog— It’s like watching a loved one die from an incurable decease and you can’t do anything about it. Where were all these Nobel Peace loving people when their countries were begging America to help them? Not much to say when Americans were loosing their lives for them , not much to say when Americans tax $$s were paying to have their countries rebuilt and forgiving their loans. Not much to say when their humble and poor are welcomed into this country for the freedoms we fought for. Not much to say when each European country has their own governments and way of life and not ours even tho we saved their asses. Now they’ve invaded the brains of Americans and are taking us down to their level. Who’s going to help them now when the real evil takes over this country?

    Comment by geezerette — December 10, 2012 @ 4:55 pm

  20. Desmond Tutu was himself a terrorism promoter in the 1970s and 1980s while his “African National Congress” was setting off truck bombs in crowded market places in Pretoria.

    Mairead Maguire is a Hamas supporter and has been associated with anti-Semitic movements around the world.

    Adolfo Parez Esquivel? The guy is a supporter of FARC, the Columbian narco-terrorist organization that murders Native Americans in order to grow cocaine on their land.

    Comment by Vincit Amor Patriae — December 10, 2012 @ 5:15 pm

  21. Hello? Arafat Peace Prize? It was ALL OVER then, it is nothing but a smug leftists’ prize club now.

    You could not *be* a sicker joke than the Nobel committee.

    Comment by Merovign — December 10, 2012 @ 6:37 pm

  22. This generic European Union didn’t just materialize out of thin air. The Prize should have been awarded decades ago to specific individuals who made the commitment to peace and then did something constructive to make it a reality.

    Adenauer, De Gaspiri, Schuman, Monnet, Hallstein, Spaak, Bech, Bayen, and some key others should have received the prize when the whole European enterprise was being threatened by the Soviet bloc from without and from Communist parties (and some socialist parties) from within.

    These were great, courageous men who had a plan of action and succeeded despite the impediments they faced. A number of them had been imprisoned by fascist regimes, so they knew first hand the dangers of dictatorships, and that fuzzy and wishful thinking were not about to bring peace (other than the peace of the graveyard).

    The two other Europeans I always felt deserved a Nobel Peace Prize were Helmut Kohl and Pope John Paul II the Great. The reunification of Germany (with its impact throughout Western, Central, and Eastern Europe) was fraught with numerous opportunities for a spark to ignite into a wider conflagration. Kohl and his American colleagues (Bush, Baker, Rice, Zelikow) did a masterful job bringing about a peaceful reunification.

    And Pope JP II deserves credit for his advancing the cause of faith and freedom behind the Iron Curtain. Ronald Reagan was also significant for his support of this effort. At least a Nobel was awarded to their close collaborator — Lech Walesa.

    The above individuals were men of action, guided by a clear sense of duty and morality. Most were strong in their faith, which was key to facing down an evil empire built upon the unrestrained use of force. This is how men of peace beat men of violence, not by gutting their moral authority, not by apologizing for their convictions, and not by saying everything is relevant.

    A great opportunity to show how genuine peace is created and maintained could have been had in previous awards of the Nobel Peace Prize. The Europeans mentioned above should have won, now all we are left with is this bland award to a European community that I am not sure fully appreciates the work that these great individuals did, nor the goals they had for Europe. Much of Europe is now on a path that the postwar founders would not have desired.

    Comment by Blue Max — December 10, 2012 @ 10:41 pm

  23. ^ (22) Ronald Reagan was also significant for his support of this effort.

    Uhm, Reagan, almost single-handedly, brought down the Iron Curtain. It was his life’s goal, and he achieved it. I would have never believed it was even possible.

    Now they’re all over here. In the fucking media!

    Oh, and also the White House. I’ve been trying to tell you guys: Dreams From My Real Father is a must see movie.

    Comment by Hog Whitman — December 11, 2012 @ 8:19 am

  24. Once, Europe colonized the world, providing an organizing structure to energize all sorts of cultures. Then it got infected by Marxism.

    The recent antics of peace prize awards is simply another symptom of the rot.

    The result? Instead of popuations capable of a vision of cathedrals requiring several generations to build, we are building populations with a new vision of a daily donated bowl of rice.

    Comment by Walt — December 11, 2012 @ 8:54 am

  25. “Say “what?” again, motherfucker, I dare ya. Say “what?” one more goddamn time…”

    Comment by mojo — December 11, 2012 @ 9:45 am

  26. OK, if the EU is so deserving of a Nobel Peace Prize, let them take over nation building of the fucked up Third World shit holes. Let them spend their blood and wealth for no return. America needs to drop that nation building crapola(as promised by Bush in 2000) and look inward. We need to clean out the mess being created by the Indonesian foreign student in the Oval Office and his Marxist minions of the Dem Party(and pussy Rinos). We need to REbuild our own former free and successful nation. I’ll bet anything the EU would do zip, nada, nothing to help us rebuild. Fuck the world, I want to get off!

    Comment by TomR, armed in Texas — December 11, 2012 @ 12:05 pm

  27. “Say “what?” again, motherfucker, I dare ya. Say “what?” one more goddamn time…”

    Wifey, a demure innocent thing who wouldn’t say shit if she had a mouth full of it, suddenly cops a ‘tude when she gets a Tec-9 in her hands. I almost died laughing. I’m just glad she wasn’t pointing it at me!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jamMaIDS4VU&feature=g-crec-u

    Comment by Hog Whitman — December 11, 2012 @ 1:57 pm

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